oldtime and bluegrass

[kristianrrb]

Greetings all!

I am writing this to get a clearer understanding of how the oldtime community and bluegrass community work together in the rest of europe. It is my impression that the communities are not very close, and I think that is wrong. But rather then putting words in your mouths, I would simply like to to ask how you guys feel towards bluegrass?

In Sweden we don't really make any major distinctions, bluegrass and oldtime musicians know eachother, play together at jams, and generally enjoy each others music and 'hang out' together. We also play at each others festivals (well, we don't really have a dedicated oldtime festival here to be honest). The Swedish organisation embraces all american folk music, not one particular style, and everyone seems ok with it. I think this is why the Swedish scene seems to have a fairly stable influx of new musicians.

I personally enjoy a lot of bluegrass, I've grown out of my negativity towards it. There are a lot of bands that don't appeal to me, but I don't feel I have to distance myself from it. And there is a lot of bluegrass I really enjoy. I again direct you attention to G2 Bluegrass Band, the EWOB winners from 2006, my current favourite bluegrass band. Another CD I have been listening to alot in the car is Ricky Skaggs and the Kentucky Thunder: Live at Charleston Music Hall.

So, how does it work where you live, and what is your feelings towards bluegrass?

regards,
Kristian

[Ptarmigan]

As a relative newcomer to this music I can only speak with limited knowledge of the scene over here in the north of Ireland ~ soory. But then, in a discussion, surely every viewpoint is of some value, however small.

So here goes .... The only "Session" I've been to here runs for about 2 hours & they usually start of playing Bluegrass, then devote about 30 mins to Old Time, then round off with Bluegrass again. So these musicians appear to be very comfortable with both.

However, recently one or two of the musicians from that group have gone off & started off what they are calling their own Old Time Session, so they do clearly make the distinction. They tell me they did this because in the other set up, they just didn't get enough time to play their first love - Old Time, which they obviously prefer.

The nearest Festival for me is held at the Ulster American Folk Park & is called the Appalachian & Bluegrass Music Festival, so a distinction is clearly made, although both are enjoyed under the same roof, but when you speak to folk who attend, you find that some go only for the Bluegrass, some only go for the Old time while others only go for the Gospel element, while others like to listen to it all.
However, I suspect that the players themselves, at informal sessions there, tend to gravitate towards musicians who play their style of music.

I'm looking forward to reading everyone's response to this thread, & in particular, I'd love to hear what other Old Time & Bluegrass musicians, who live in Ireland, think about this.

As well as the European perspective, I'd be curious to know how this works back home too, in the U.S.A.

I know Kristian, you say that what happens in New York doesn't have any bearing on us, over here in Europe, but as with most things, what goes on musically in the States, usually washes over eventually, one way or another, so I'd be curious to learn more from over there, too.

I suspect that if, in traditional circles in New York, more & more trad musicians are embracing Old Time Music, we could very well see a trend in that direction, with musicians over here, before too long.

As for my feelings towards Bluegrass, I think I've made them clear elsewhere. But, to be brief here, Bluegrass just doesn't ring my bell & neither does Country Music. Now obviously that is not a total blanket of negativity, because now & then I hear a Bluegrass or Country tune or song that connects with me, but in all honesty they are fairly few & far between. Wherease, I feel an immediate connection with Old Time & I'm not sure I fully understand why that is yet, but perhaps, by the end of this discussion, I'll have a better idea! ;D

Cheers
Dick

[tobias]

Good topic Kristian. :-)
In Denmark both the BG and OT communities seem pretty closely related. Actually the "president" of the danish Bluegrass Assosoation, Arne Sørensen, is a close friend of our band. We meet with him once in a while and have an Oldtime jam. He is somewhat of an in-the-closet-Oldtimer :-) He has been responsible for the majority of our gigs too. Those gigs were at BG events. So to me the danish scenes seems to work closely together. I have been to both bluegrass and Oldtime events and some of the same people seem to come to both.
All that being said, I should mention that my own taste is really mainly in the Oldtime camp. Granted I do enjoy some of the classic bluegrass. Bill Monroe, Stanley Bros and Flatt & Scruggs. Some of the young players are ok as well. Skaggs and so forth. But in my ears (and this might be mainly due to limited exposure (and interest)) the run of the mill Bluegrass band (non-classic, non-innovators and non-superstars) kinda sounds the same. I have been to some BG festivals and a BG jam allways seems to sound the same. The same type of breaks, same type of harmonies,same type of performance and so forth. You can set your watch to it. "Ok, the banjo player steps foreward... gives a break...down the neck a bit...up again..." "Mandolin steps foreward...gives a break" "They all lean in for some harmonies...allways with that high-formular-harmony". Granted BG players might say the same about OT. I just have these moments when I am sitting within earshot of a BG jam, where I think "I have heard this EXACT sound before".
I have experienced some OT jams where BG players were involved. Usually there is no difference. Its all a joy"....But once in a while the jams seems highjacked by the bluegrassers. Changes back and forth in keys...which is a royal pain in the "donkey" for an OT-fiddler and banjoplayer who have to retune...forced breaks, or just plain playing to loud compared to the oldtimers. That resonated banjo played with metal picks...sigh! It just drowns us all. I think it works better when oldtime players join in a bluegrass jam. We dont do breaks or play loud. We just play along on the side. It doesnt interfeer with the Bluegrass way of doing it.
But all in all...The teamwork and freindship of Oldtime and Bluegrass is really essential in my eyes. Especially in Europe. We are a musical minority and should stick together. :-)

Oh...One more thing. The wonderful thing about Oldtime is that it kind of borders quite a few musical genres and could work at events devoted to those. European (esp. Irish) music, country music and bluegrass. We have played at both Bluegrass events, country events and at events devoted to scandinavian folk music. That combination of folk-music and american music really works in our favor.

I think the reason most new-comers are seen in the Bluegrass genre, is the energy and performance. Its a bit more modern and "entertaining" than OT. But for some the glitz and glamour wears off. I have heard from a few Bluegrass banjoplayers that they want to learn to clawhammer.
/Tobias

[tobias]

Another thing...That new revival in New York. From my understanding, it seems to be mainly bluegrass and more experimental OT and folk...I might be wrong...I hope I am wrong :-)

/Tobias

[Susi]

I agree with Kristian about the Swedish scene, the oldtimers and bluegrassers hang around and jam together, don't mind each other, even if sometimes I get the feeling at certain jams that the bluegrassers look down on the oldtimers, and sometimes vice versa.

I like bluegrass music, and it was actually bluegrass that lead me to oldtime... Bluegrass is great fun if you meet the right people to jam with but it can be a lot of elitism around bluegrass players. There are always those "elit jams" at the festivals where only the top musicians are welcome, and everyone else is closed out.
However I really enjoy playing bluegrass, it's great music, and when you try to learn to improvise, it actually makes everything else in music easier for you because it's good practice in playing by ear and finding your way around your instrument...

Also, there is a huge difference in going to a bluegrass festival and look for jams, and going to, for example Kattinge (because that's the only ot fest I've been to). At the bluegrass festival, people arrive, they have to go around and say hi to everyone, barbecue, walk the dog, anything, and maybe play a little later. At Kattinge, people arrived, they checked into their rooms, they opened their instrument cases and they jammed for three days. I like that!!!!!!!!!!!

I haven't been in Ireland long but it seems like they have the same kind of festivals here as in Sweden, mixed bluegrass/oldtime festivals. It also seems like there are more oldtime music around and that it's more known among people. In Sweden the public has no clue whatsover what either bluegrass or oldtime is, but here it's enough that you mention Appalachian fiddle music and they will know. At least that's my impression down here in the south, I don't know about the rest of the country..

[Susi]

I think we also need to learn to make a distinction between folk music and trad music. Folk music is Bob Dylan and Pete Seeger and stuff like that, you know, the 60's stuff. Trad music is dance tunes and old ballads that often reflect a country's past.
What they play at Irish pub sessions is trad music, not folk music. What they play at a Swedish spelmansstämma is trad music, not folk music. Folk music is something else that I believe is more easily accepted by the general public.
Sorry for the side track.

[Susi]

Not much fiddling these days, John. I'm very unsatisfied with my job so all my free time is taken by looking for a better job
But after the holiday I brought my mandolin home from Sweden so now I'm happy reunited with my mandolin (even if I really want a better one) and I'm enjoying it more than ever and learning to play Flop Eared Mule and Fire on the mountain. (quite easy tunes that I can then try on the fiddle...)
Paid the deposit for my new mandolin so now the waiting begins..

I know there are loads of different opinions regarding the difference between trad and folk, and what it really means. Just an attempt to make people speak the same language. But I suppose this is among trad musicians. And also among them there are many different thoughts on the topic if you start discussing it....hmm confusing.

Oops, another side track. Let's go back to the bg/ot discussion

[john]

Sorry to hear bout your job. Hope you find a better soon. You know you can down load many old time tunes in tab. for mandolin on the net.
Bout the rest...you are right.
CHEERS,
jOHN

[kristianrrb]

So many points to address - so little energy.. I will give my reaction in the morning instead .

/Kristian

[deleuran]

Holy crap! I have been away all day on business, and sit down and feel like relaxing with the OTM Forum. And man, this subject! I have a couple of opinions on this subject. It's very interesting, but, when I saw how much I had to read I suddenly got tired.
I have read it all by now, but maybe I should save my comment for tomorrow, but then again.....
I love all kinds of music, as long as it's good. I have said it often and I say it gladly again: There are only two kinds of music, good and bad. It is not limited to genres.
I love bluegrass, and I played and loved to listen to bluegrass long before I heard the term old-time music. Much later I found out that most of the tunes I have played and sung through the years, from the folk revival in the 60' to my personal interest in bluegrass emerged in the 70's were all songs and tunes that came from the old-time repetoire. Nothing new under the sun, except a difference in the approach and the ways to treat the instruments.
Most of my favorite musicians (when we don't include, jazz, blues, rock, western swing classical etc.) play bluegrass. Doc Watson, Earl Scruggs, Ricky Skaggs, Tony Rice, Norman Blake, David Grisman, Dan Crary and on and on.
The problem with a whole lot of bluegrassbands though are that they sound alike, They play the same way, they have a "Nashvillian" way of singing, that bore me stiff. But it goes for all genres I guess.

Otfiddler mention Kattinge. It is an amazing experience. I met a swedish banjo player there, Banjo Bengt he called himself. Bengt Ericson, we talked and played a lot, and continued to mail together. He told me later, that he had been in the sweedish bluegrasscirkles for more than twenty years, and he had had more fun in the three days in Kattinge than the last ten years in bluegrass. There were a good spirit, and as otfiidler tells you could just take out your instrument and join in a jam right away, nobody was trying to freeze you out.
And as Bengt said, at bluegrassjams it was often more like a martial art. A competition. Who plays best, fastest etc. And people are comparing your playing with a record of for instance Tony Rice, like 'Hey, you didn't play that lick like Tony Rice play it on so and so record.' In stead of being judged on what you are and where you're at, you get compared to the very best players on a level, that you will probably not be able to reach in a liftime.
And I guess Bengt has a point there.
He ended up inviting us to play at the Nääsville bluegrass and old-time festival this summer. His ambition is to make it half-half. Half bluegrass, half old-time. It will be exciting to see, how it is going to work.
I could say more, if I were not so tired, and Tobias has allready told a great deal of what I could come up with. So read his comment.

[john]

A funny thing happened at Kattinge; Bengt phoned some of his friends in Sweden. They were attending the same bluegrass festival he came from. And 3 hours later they arrived at Kattinge and had a great time jamming and fooling around. And as they said leaving Kattinge: We will be back
next year.
john

[deleuran]

tobias said:

Another thing...That new revival in New York. From my understanding, it seems to be mainly bluegrass and more experimental OT and folk...I might be wrong...I hope I am wrong :-)

/Tobias

About the revival in New York, you can read the whole article from New York Times here:
www.nytimes.com/2008/02/29/arts/music/29folk.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&th&emc=th
And curious as I am, I asked my friend Mike Jaboe, who is an OT fiddler and journalist and live in the state of N.Y. if he knew anything about it. And I take the liberty to quote him:

There is a huge folk revival going on in New York City, especially with old-time music. At festivals you see lots of great young old-time players.

I guess that someone who actually live over there, and go to the festivals ought to know better than us.