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Post by Ptarmigan on Nov 26, 2007 18:12:44 GMT
Jesper posted this thread a while ago & now, not before time, as it was such a great idea, I've created this board as a place for himself & other song enthusiasts, to wax lyrical about the many & varied great songs in the Old Time tradition. Have fun guys. Cheers Dick Posted by Deleuran - Nov 19th '07
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Post by Ptarmigan on Nov 26, 2007 18:16:44 GMT
Reply posted on Nov 19th by Ptarmigan
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Post by Ptarmigan on Nov 26, 2007 18:19:08 GMT
Reply Posted by John - 26th Nov '07
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Post by Ptarmigan on Nov 26, 2007 18:21:39 GMT
Posted by Jesper - 26th Nov '07
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Post by deleuran on Nov 26, 2007 19:09:52 GMT
Oh Dick, you must not scare me like that For a couple of minutes I thought that the thread had disappeared, and then you have just made it an independent subject. That's great, but phew you got me worried for a little while ;D. I came to think of some tunes where there is not realy singing, but some kind of shouting-like during the fiddling. For instance Hangmans Reel, a french-canadian fiddle tune in four parts, were we sing/shout "Hangman set me free" in the C part. And in Sandy boys we can sing/shout "Oh, Sandy boys" a couple of times and end it "Oh Sandy boys, riding on that train. Some of the fiddletunes I mention above, for instance Fortune, there are only song on half of the B part, and fiddle on all the rest. You can hear Tommy Jarrel do some of this. And this about Hangman and Sandy Boys I have from Tobias. Where he have picked it up, we'll have to ask him. Just thought I would mention it. Another thing we could talk about in here, are the Murder Ballads. They are something else. I know some of them, Knoxville Girl, Little Sadie, Banks of the Ohio, Down in the Willow Garden, and there are many more I would guess. I have read somewhere, that Knoxville Girl is an old ballad from England. There have been a version named The Oxford Murder, that can be traced back to the 1600'th I think. And it is said, that this song have been linked to a lot of small towns in USA. Each town their version. And then there are the variations in the lyrics, and lyrics that travel from song to song. There's a lot to talk about in this subject.
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Post by Ptarmigan on Nov 26, 2007 19:15:41 GMT
Sorry Jesper, yes I did send both you & John a PM, but I guess a lot of folks don't spot them hiding at the top of the page. Anyway, I'm sure this new Song Board will become very popular, especially with you two guys involved. Cheers Dick
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Post by deleuran on Nov 26, 2007 21:42:03 GMT
It's all right I have calmed down now. I first saw the PM afterwards. PS.: How do I get my karma up? I guess I have said "banjo" one time too many ;D Shall I put smileys all over? ;D ;D ;D
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Post by tobias on Nov 27, 2007 8:04:37 GMT
I came to think of some tunes where there is not realy singing, but some kind of shouting-like during the fiddling. For instance Hangmans Reel, a french-canadian fiddle tune in four parts, were we sing/shout "Hangman set me free" in the C part. And in Sandy boys we can sing/shout "Oh, Sandy boys" a couple of times and end it "Oh Sandy boys, riding on that train. Well, I heard Foghorn SB shout like that on Hangmans Reel. But Sandy Boys actually has lyrics more than just shouting. We (in Big Hungry Joe) just play the B part in the nontraditional way, which doesnt fit the lyrics. The original Hammons (Edden, Burl, Lee) way of playing it makes singing possible. Its about workmen that would work along the Big Sandy river (West Virginia!?). The shouting I saw the Freighthoppers do. /Tobias
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Post by john on Nov 28, 2007 6:58:58 GMT
Murder ballads! Well, I really do not know any murder ballads but I know a lot af ballads that has been murdered john-
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Post by Ptarmigan on Nov 28, 2007 7:08:40 GMT
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Post by Susi on Nov 28, 2007 9:07:03 GMT
Murder ballads! They are the best!!
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Post by deleuran on Nov 28, 2007 19:03:46 GMT
Yeah, murder ballads are good and almost allways have a beautifull tune. But a peculiar thing about them are that in allmost all of them, the young man kills the girl he loves in the first verse, and there are never any clue to why he does it. No motive at all! The only exception I can think of is Down in the Willow Garden where there is some kind of motive. Not a good one, but a motive anyway. And they all end with the young man sitting in jail wearing the "ball and chain" and moaning about how nobody will go his bail. He should have thought of that before he knocked that fair girl down. I'll let you in to my private room and listen to a poor little recording I have made of myself singing Down in the Willow Garden: www.jesperdeleuran.dk/media/Musik/My_own_recordings/Willow%20Garden.MP3
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Post by tobias on Nov 28, 2007 19:55:37 GMT
"Two Sisters" is an especially upsetting song. Look it up.
I like the version on Tom Waits' last triple-CD. He manages to pull of a nice Oldtimey tune.
/T
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Post by Susi on Nov 29, 2007 0:34:47 GMT
Two sisters has a Swedish version, De två systrarna, it's been recorded by Folk & Rackare. VERY VERY good stuff. Wish I could find a good recording in English though. Jesper, GREAT recording!!! Your guitar playing is very good, very even and nice. I tried to do a recording the other day, but after these busy months without playing music, my timing just sucks and everything sounds like **** so it just made me depressed. I'll just play for fun for a while and maybe I will sound decent soon again..
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axel
Old Time Spoons Player
Lord of the strings
Posts: 17
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Post by axel on Dec 22, 2007 8:47:45 GMT
Red Clay Ramblers recorded the finest version of Two Sisters ever heard ( In my opinion tht is ;D) Check it out and let me hear what you think.. Axel
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hunter
Old Time Jews Harp Player
Posts: 42
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Post by hunter on Jan 29, 2008 6:44:42 GMT
There's a great version of The Two Sisters on one of the Beech Mountain records put out by Folk Legacy Records in Connecticut. A field recording, from the early '60's if I recall right.
On motive for murder: I often wonder too, people seem to just get shot down, stabbed etc just for the hell of it. I did come across something at one point about Pretty Polly, linking it back to an English ballad, The Gosport Tragedy. Apparently Johnny's gotten the girl pregnant and decides to off her in order to continue to lead a carefree life. Well, we all know how that ends up... But it was interesting to see how the version I sing picks up in the middle of the story.
Hunter
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Post by deleuran on Jan 29, 2008 11:44:13 GMT
Hey Hunter. Nice to meet you here.
About the murder ballads and their origin. Again I come to think of Knoxville Girl, as it is one of the songs I have sung myself. It's a long an bloody story, and no exception from the other murder ballads, Th fair girl is knocked down in the end of the first verse, and in the second she beg. "Oh, Willy dear, don't kill me here, I'm not prepared to die!" I looked it up at Wikipedia, and it says: "The Knoxville Girl is an Appalachian murder ballad. It is derived from the 19th century Irish ballad The Wexford Girl, an Irish localization of The Oxford Girl. Other versions are known as the Waxweed Girl, The Wexford Murder. These are in turn derived from Elizabethan era poem or broadside ballad, The Cruel Miller. Although the lyrics are less explicit than those for The Wexford Girl, the song is generally considered to be creepier or spookier in its rendition. Intro lyrics: I met a little girl in Knoxville, A town we all know well, And every Sunday evening, Out in her home I’d dwell. Possibly modelled on the 17th century broadside William Grismond's Downfall, or A Lamentable Murther by him Committed at Lainterdine in the county of Hereford on March 12 1650: Together with his lamentation., sometimes known as The Bloody Miller. Related or derived broadsides include: Hanged I Shall Be (Philip Henry's Diaries and Letters, 20 February 1684, ed. M. H. Lee, 1882, p.323) Rose Conley or Rose Connally, variously known as Down in the Willow Garden."
As we see, a lot, or actually most murder ballads can be traced back to Europe 200 - 300 years back. More on this in the following quote, on the subject Murder Ballads: Murder ballads are a notable portion of recorded medieval ballads from Scandinavia and Great Britain. In those, the victim overcomes the murderer, tricks him and stabs him to death while sleeping. Thus, justice is fulfilled, and the murderer is punished. Many of those ballads mention a row of dead brides, from seven and up to ten, until the final surviving heroine. Often the details and locales for a particular murder ballad change as it is sung over time, reflecting the audience and the performer. For example, "Knoxville Girl" is essentially the same ballad as "The Wexford Girl" with the setting transposed from Ireland to Tennessee - the two of them are based on "The Oxford Girl", the original murder ballad set in England. American murder ballads are often versions of older Old World ballads with any elements of supernatural retribution removed. For example, the English ballad "The Gosport Tragedy" of the 1750s had both murder and vengeance on the murderer by the ghosts of the murdered woman and her unborn baby, who call up a great storm to prevent his ship sailing before tearing him apart. In contrast, the Kentucky version, "Pretty Polly", is a stark murder ballad ending with the murder and burial of the victim in a shallow grave."
As we see, we have had our share of those songs here in Scandinavia. And there are an interesting story in the end about the origin of "Pretty Polly". It looks like the ghosts have been taken out of the Kentucky version.
If you are interested look it up on wikipedia. There are lots of links to related subjects.
;D Jesper
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hunter
Old Time Jews Harp Player
Posts: 42
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Post by hunter on Jan 30, 2008 3:30:16 GMT
Hey Jesper, interesting stuff. I'd noticed that about the magical element disappearing, like in Lady Gay, glamorie (Scottish "magic") becomes grammery. There's another song, can't remember the name of it, where the murdered girl's bone gets made into a flute (or a fiddle sometimes) that tells who killed her.
My version of Pretty Polly, even though no ghosts wreak their vengeance on the killer, at least ends with the guy saying, "Now ladies and gentlemen, I bid you farewell, for killing Pretty Polly I'll soon be in hell". It would be tough to sing without at least some justice.
Hunter
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Post by deleuran on Apr 15, 2008 17:13:19 GMT
I have just made a recording, singing the harmonies, and playing mandolin and guitar, on a song I've heard with Gid Tanner & His Skillet Lickers. I found some lyrics on the internet. Not the same as Gid Tanner's, but very funny I think. It's a merry tune and it should be fiddle on the parts where I play the mandolin: www.jesperdeleuran.dk/media/Musik/RAIN2_02.MP3Hope You like it.
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Post by deleuran on Apr 17, 2008 14:23:55 GMT
Here is the lyrics if anybody should be interested. I can add, that there are several different versions of this song. All with different lyrics. It's an old fiddletune build on the traditional A and B piece. The fiddle starts playing the A and B piece, then the singers take their turn, then the fiddle and so on: It Ain't Gonna Rain No MoreCHOUS: It ain't gonna' rain no more no more It ain't gonna' rain no more How in the hell can the old folks tell That it ain't gonna' rain no more We had a cat down on our farm It had a ball of yarn When those little cats were born They all had sweaters on She lay down by the sewer And by the sewer she died And at the coroner's inquest They called it sewer side We had a goat down on our farm It ate up old tin cans When those little goats were born They came in Ford sedans Some people say that fleas are black But I know that ain't so 'Cause Marry had a little lamb Whose fleece was white as snow The chamber maid came to my bed Get up you lazy sinner We need the sheets for table cloths And it's almost time for dinner In the last chorus I have used a variation: "How in heck can I wash my neck When the wash rag's on the floor?" Michael Diaz on the FHO suggested this "To answer the question in the chorus, maybe the old folks could tell that it wasn't going to rain anymore because their bunions stopped hurting. Just a guess."
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