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Post by Ptarmigan on Jan 29, 2008 17:28:46 GMT
Just to put the Cat among the Pigeons I thought I'd throw in this quote from a thread I was reading today, over on SitG. I know it's bound to antagonize a couple of folks here!  .... perhaps you have a strong opinion one way or the other.  I can understand what this writer was saying but personally, I actually love the variety you get with Old Time Music, when one player can sound a little scratchy & rough around the edges, but still his music sounds vibrant, alive & real. However, I also love to be totally inspired by a very sweet & perfectly pitched piece of playing. To be honest I really wouldn't want it all one way or the other. Cheers Dick |
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Post by deleuran on Jan 29, 2008 19:55:50 GMT
Fools like this pisses me off  I have met this opinion before when it comes to old time music, and it pisses me off every time. The notion that it is not "real" old time if the fiddle is not out of tune and the fiddler can't play straight, and when it comes to singing, it's best when it is out of key, is just too darned stupid!!! It's no secret that I love Doc Watson, but I love Tommy Jarrel just as much. I listen to jazz, classical, bluegrass, rockmusic of many kinds, and folk music from different parts of the world. I follow the old saying: There are only two kinds of music, good and bad. And I follow another saying, I listen to the music that gives me goose bumps. In the good way. I hate fanatics, both when it comes to religion and when it comes to music. It's a sign of a narrow mind, and I don't want to waste my mind on stupidity. It antagonized me all right, Dick. But you allready knew that when you wrote it, didn't you? You rascal you |
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Post by john on Jan 29, 2008 21:31:22 GMT
Hi, Jesper
I am with you all the way!!
cheers,
John
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Post by deleuran on Jan 29, 2008 21:59:09 GMT
Thank you, John!! You're my kind of guy  I made a mistake though. I wrote: "I don't want to waste my mind on stupidity"What I meant was: "I don't want to waste my time on stupidity"And ironically enough, that's excactly what I did ;D Cheers Jesper |
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Post by tobias on Jan 30, 2008 8:17:09 GMT
I agree with Jesper as well...although it doesnt piss me off as much I can partly understand his thought. Doc Watsons playing and singing is very clean and nice....But I love it. Doc was my first introduction to old-time music. That double album he did with Clarence Ashley. But we have to remember that Doc isnt only Old-time. Bluegrass, rockabilly, country, blues. You name it...hes been there. Truly a great talent. With that said, I would say that if everyone played like Doc, the world would be a boring place...And if everyone played the fiddle like Tommy Jarrell, the same would apply. Its all about variety. When it comes to fiddlers I will admit that I prefer the more "dirty" fiddlers. I like to hear the bow really dig into those strings. I want some fiddleplaying that really grabs me by the...hair. My favorite is Dan Gellert, and on the before mentioned album of Doc and Clarences, I prefer Gaither Carlton to Fred Price...BUT if the world was only inhabitet by "dirty" fiddlers, that truely would be boring fast. We need people like Rayna Gellert and Matt Brown (who I believe both had classical training) to produce that sweet tone. So I agree with the post to the extent that Docs playing is very nice and perfect...But doesnt the guy like any variety? /Tobias |
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Post by john on Jan 31, 2008 15:10:09 GMT
Hi there,
back in the old days they started collecting old songs and fiddle tunes in Norway. The collectors
were classic educated in music and when they heard what they thought was a false note they corrected it while writing down the music. So when the fiddle tunes were played again with the
right notes it sounded wrong. There were no false notes. It had to be played that way. I got this story from an old fiddler from Hardanger. He could play bout 300 tunes. And he could sing the tunes as well.
cheers,
john
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Post by deleuran on Jan 31, 2008 20:12:54 GMT
But I guess he didn't sing or play out of key because he didn't have the ear for it. If you know what I mean? He sang and played them as they were supposed to sound.
I have thought about this subject for a couple of days. I saw the movie "Songcatcher" a couple of nights ago, and came to think, the origin of old time music, is basically the songs.
And the old mountain singing, as I have heard it in this movie, and in other places. Ralph Stanley singing acapella in the movie Oh, Brother for instance, and I could name several other mountain singers. They all sing clear as mountain water. Otherwise it would be hard to stand.
The quote Dick started out this thread with: "...his voice is smoothly and it just doesn't have the guts soaked through it that stimulates and stirs... it sounds rather vanilla."
Doesn't this fool like the old mountain songs?
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Post by john on Jan 31, 2008 20:18:37 GMT
and you are absolutely right, Jesper.
john
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Post by Ptarmigan on Jan 31, 2008 20:59:26 GMT
Jesper wrote: Hmmm Interesting Jesper. I just watched an archaeology programme on TV which explained how song even came before language itself! It seems the earliest songs didn't use words at all, but instead they mimicked bird song! Where would we be without singers eh!  Aye & come to think of it, where would we be without Birds! Cheers Dick
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Post by Ptarmigan on Jan 31, 2008 21:10:53 GMT
John, your Norwegian story reminds me of the famous Irish collector Edward Bunting. He was classically trained too so when he wrote down what he heard the old Harp players playing in 1792 in Belfast, I just wonder if he did the same thing & changed some of the notes, which to his ear sounded wrong!  Belfast Harp FestivalMind you, even if they did, at least these guys recorded something! Without them & their work we would all be so much the poorer. So better a little than nothing at all. Cheers Dick |
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Post by john on Feb 1, 2008 15:01:43 GMT
Hi Dick, you are right. Thank God for collectors, talent scouts and field recordings.
Many of the musicians back then and today were and are hard workers. With hands like shovels and rheumatic fingers no wonder that it can be hard to hit the right note sometimes.
cheers,
John
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Post by john on Feb 10, 2008 14:05:13 GMT
And Doc`s playing is smooth, it rocks and swings and it moves. Note perfect ,because he is a master on his instrument.
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Post by deleuran on Feb 10, 2008 16:02:44 GMT
Well said, John ! Amen to that |
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Post by tobias on Feb 11, 2008 14:43:12 GMT
I heard Dan Gellert speak of old american and irish fiddlers, and he says that before the piano and fretted instruments entered these types of folkmusic, the fiddlers would play notes that we today consider off-key. Playing along with fretted instruments made this impossible. Some of the same goes for early singing. Some of the early field recordings also have some of the singers singing "out-of-key". I dont think they took notice, because they didnt have the same frame of reference. Today all music has been passed through a million computers and editors and instruments are tuned with electronic tuners. If something is off....we hear it. I love those old tunes and songs where the disonances pop in once in a while. It really gives it a nerve and some b**ls. Listen to the singing of Dillard Chandler, one of the greatest balladsingers. He has those quick "off-key" ending tones to some phrases. I love that type of singing. It talkes me back in time. www.amazon.com/Dillard-Chandler-End-Old-Song/dp/B000RKN3KM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1202741038&sr=8-2/Tobias |
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Post by deleuran on Feb 11, 2008 16:29:07 GMT
Yes Tobias. I know you like it I love Dillard Chandlers singing too, but what you call "quick "off-key" ending tones are highly intentional, and notice! They are not really off-key. They are perfectly in key and he doesn't sing a false note. He is not the only singer who sings this way. I have heard several unaccompanied singers, and it seems like that little twist in the end of the lines is part of the style in certain areas of the mountains. Not many do it that way these days. But take an example as Ralph Stanley singing solo to standing ovations in the concert film "Down From The Mountains". He does exactly the same. |
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Post by john on Feb 11, 2008 16:41:56 GMT
yep, that s right.
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Post by Ptarmigan on Feb 11, 2008 16:58:51 GMT
Hey guys, This debate would also make a very interesting topic for the "Old Time Singers & Songs" Board, don't you think? Cheers Dick |
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Post by john on Feb 11, 2008 18:57:54 GMT
Yes, it will Dick. When do we start?  cheers, john |
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Post by deleuran on Feb 11, 2008 21:00:00 GMT
Yes, maybe. Except this is not just about the singing. It's about the playing too, so maybe you should let it stay where it is. This is kind of a general discussion as I see it.
And another thing is, I think I have pretty much said what I think about this subject. I don't think I have anything to add. But I might be wrong. And maybe somebody else has an opinion about it? Though so far it doesn't look like it.
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Post by Ptarmigan on Feb 12, 2008 8:58:08 GMT
Yes, of course it was only the part about singing, that I was referring to. I found that part interesting & I'm sure a lot more could be said about that style of singing. I think it would be nice to hear some other opinions on the subject & it is possible that a songs & singing enthusiast visiting this forum, might only wish to chat about singers & singing styles, so they might head straight for the board which related to that subject & could perhaps miss it, as it's tucked away on this thread, as a side issue. But hey, you guys are the singers, so I'll leave it up to you. It takes me all my time to talk in tune ... never mind sing in tune!  Cheers Dick |
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I have met this opinion before when it comes to old time music, and it pisses me off every time.
