A question of Old Time IMAGE?

[Ptarmigan]

Following on from a bit of banter I was having next door with Jesper over image, I came across this quote, which Bill Frisell wrote:

Bruce Molsky has managed to go deep into this well (the well of traditional music), come back intact, and bring all this good stuff with him. He has absorbed it and it is his. He's not dressed up in some costume. There is no mimicry. This is real. He's singing and playing in his own voice. He knows where he's been and where he's going.

Now I found this quote interesting & it set me wondering if Old Time musicians on this side of the pond really do feel a greater need to "LOOK THE PART" than their American counterparts, when playing Old Time Music?

This question is directed at anyone over here who actually plays Old Time Music out in public, whether that's just at Old Time Sessions, or up on stage at Concerts or for Dances.

If you do tend to get dressed up in some sort of American style costume, do you do this because you believe audiences expect it, or because you feel it gets you into an Old Time groove, for playing?

I notice most Old Time musicians over here do tend to dress up for their CD Cover photos, but I'd be interested to learn whether or not they feel the need to dress up for gigs & sessions too?

As a foot note, when Mrs Ptarmigan & I go out playing Irish Music we just dress smartly or casually depending on whether it's a gig or a concert, but I have noticed that many times tourists are a little disappointed when they eventually find out that what they have been listening to was not two Irish Musicians who learned their music from their grandparents at the hearth of a wee country cottage, but a Scotsman & a German!

However, I refuse to dress up as a Leprechaun with a shellelagh by my side and likewise, I wouldn't be for poncing about on straw bales, with overalls & straw hat, except as part of a show or festival where costume was required, like for example a Medieval Joust, for which we dress in Medieval costume.

Any thoughts on this?

[deleuran]

Hey Dick. Now that you mention my name in this context, I will point out as clearly as it is possible, that I do not dress to "look the part" I am not a clown. When I play I wear my everyday clothes. I have grown a moustache which I refer to as my old time moustace ;D
But I have had that for many many years (maybe it has grown a little longer lately though)
We have talked about it in the band, but I strongly oppose to the thought of wearing overalls, cornpipe and strawhat or whatever. I don't want to perform in "uniform".
I would feel like a fool.
We have however taken a Photo of the band with our instruments. We wear ordinary jeans, shirts and/or jackets, contemporary that is. And a couple of the guys wear a hat. And then I have "soiled" it in photoshop, to make it look old. That's a gimmick I admit. But no old time clothes for me, please. I don't have an image I want to expose.
The music is what it's all about. The music is the image if you will. If the music can't manage on its own, why bother.
This image thing is one you have dragged into our little dispute, Dick. And it should come from someone wearing medieval suits ;D I have seen you with that funny hat ;D ;D

[Ptarmigan]

Aye, regarding the facial hair, tourists sometimes think I wear a beard because I want to look like one of the Dubliners, little knowing that I actually grew my beard while I was working as a Gamekeeper, 5/6 years before I took up playing Traditional music. It seams that most people just like to have things in neat little boxes.

As for costumes, I wasn't actually thinking of anyone in particular, although I must admit, Country Bands did come to mind when I read Bills quote, you know those bands with the Cowboy Hats, Boots etc etc

I'm with you on the costume thing Jesper, for when we play at a concert or a session none of us would ever dream of getting ourselves dressed up in some sort of costume. If I wash my face I feel that's more than enough effort on my part! ;D

As for those Medieval clothes I have to wear, yeah they are a necessary evil & go with the territory at a reenactment event, as everyone is obliged to look the part. Of course at those events there are all manner of participants, wood turners, candle makers, swordsmen etc etc etc so for me to be in my usual jeans & jumper, I'd be the one who looked completely out of place. I must admit, it did take me a while to get used to the idea of wearing a costume on those days, but they help everyone, kids especially, to get into the spirit of the event.

Any time I have done any Film Extra work, I obviously had to dress accordingly - yes, I was one of the Knights of the Round Table in "Excalibur" ~ the one with the bald head & his back to the camera .... in one scene only!

Also, anytime we are asked to play at a costume event at the Ulster American Folk Park, I really don't mind wearing period costume for those days, as all other performers in the museum that day are in costume too.

However, at the end of the day, I don't feel I need a costume to play any particular kind of music, in my book that's just plain silly.

As for hats, having a bald head as I do, I do need to wear a hat at certain times ~ if you don't believe me, just wait till you go bald & then stand out, bear headed in a hailstone storm! OUCH!

It was funny in the 70s over here, cause at Folk Clubs every second bloke seemed to be wearing an Arran Jumper & sporting a beard! It was as if they couldn't sing unless they had the right gear. Makes me think too of all those Line Dancers you see who just have to wear the Full Cowboy or Cowgirl outfit.

Cheers
Dick

[dulcimike]

I know I'm on the west side of the pond, but I thought I'd chime in here.

My perception is that Americans, more than folk son the east side of the pond, like the costumes. Maybe they think it's more "authentic" if you wear something Irish to play Irish music and something of the mountaineer if you're playing Old Time.

Especially in the Scottish (or Ulster-Scot) groups here in America, they love the kilts, etc. And, of course, with St. Patrick's day coming, I'm reminded of all the show tunes that people want to hear then - kind of like wearing the costume to look Irish, though maybe one is of French, German, Greek or even Japanese background.

I remember playing some Old-Time, Irish and Scottish music at a concert last summer. I wore my uitilikilt, kilt hose and a frontier-looking shirt with my Keens (modern shoes). One lady was so excited because I'd worn the kilt! I, personally, like the opportunity to wear some of this dress when I'm playing. But some people's reactions remind me too much of St. Patrick's Day in an American pub - green beer, "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling" and "Danny Boy" - non of it terribly traditional or even real. Also reminds me of Scottish Highland Games in the US - something more akin to Brigadoon than reality.

I'm also reminded of something Jerry Read Smith, the dulcimer builder from Asheville, NC, told me once. He said he had begun to believe a lot of people come visit his shop in the mountains of NC, looking out over a valley, and buy a dulcimer from him because they are trying to catch something of what they imagine living in the mountains is like.

I guess, at least here in America, performing in public, other than in a session especially for tourists, is more entertainment than anything else, and as such, costumes can be a part of that entertainment, though I guess one risks the furtherance of popular myths and misconceptions by wearing the Irish, Scottish or Old-Time dress. But one also can't really change people's minds who know nothing to speak of about the music than their misconceptions.

When we went to here the Blakes and Bryans, they wore comfortable, but modern clothes, but clothes that were (especially for the Blakes) performance clothes.

When I play Old Time, I usually have some nice long-sleeved collarless shirts I wear with jeans. It's suggestive of mountain clothing, but not "costumey".

The other thing here is the idea of "branding" for your business, if you're in the music business. One of our new friends here is storyteller Jim Pfitzer, who in going through a business course, decided to grow his beard back out, and let his hair grow so he looked more like a mountain man - for his storytelling about the mountains. It's show business when you do this, and I'm OK with that, as long as it's done judiciously, which is, admittedly a subjective thing, what's judicious or not. I actually have started wearing suspenders, or braces as some people call them. I had some, and sometimes wore them if I was doing something particularly Old-Time or mountainy. But they're comfortable, so I decided, since it would be somewhat in line with the branding idea for Cute Dog Music, I'd just start wearing them and wear them on-stage and off for Old-Time or a mixture of styles - unless I wore my kilt. And I already have a beard I've been wearing since I was in my 20s (some time ago).

I guess the thing is, that we need to know our audience and ourselves well enough to do whatever we're comfortable with that will give our audience a pleasurable experience.

All this from the-west-side-of-the-pond, still-figuring-this-thing-out perspective.

[deleuran]

I thought that maybe I should moderate what I said above. I don't condemn people wearing different kinds of clothing for entertainment or other purposes. I was a part of the hippie movement when I was very young. Long hair, beard, funny clothes etc. And when I was 13 The Beatles first single hit Denmark, and my hair immediately began to grow, and I began to play in the first band I have been in, The Shaking Strings , so who am I to speak of other people.
In my book it is OK to dress and look in all sorts of ways, and I don't mind. It's a spice of life.
I just wanted to point out that I would feel ridiculous to dress up like Snuffy Smith to play a gig. How other people feel are their business.

And now that you mention the line dancers, I come to think of a gig we played last august. It was a big thing, where a lot of different kinds of dancers and different kinds of folk- and other music were gathered for a weekend.
We were hired to play for traditional square dance with an american caller, and a couple of hundred dancers from all over Denmark. Everybody were clothed casually in everyday clothes, but the line dancers! Holy S...! Stetson hats, revolver belts, sixshooters, boots, and the ladies also with cowgirl outfits, frayed edged skirts etc. I must admit I couldn't help smiling to say the least. ;D

[dulcimike]

deleuran said:

I thought that maybe I should moderate what I said above. I don't condemn people wearing different kinds of clothing for entertainment or other purposes. I was a part of the hippie movement when I was very young. Long hair, beard, funny clothes etc. And when I was 13 The Beatles first single hit Denmark, and my hair immediately began to grow, and I began to play in the first band I have been in, The Shaking Strings , so who am I to speak of other people.
In my book it is OK to dress and look in all sorts of ways, and I don't mind. It's a spice of life.
I just wanted to point out that I would feel ridiculous to dress up like Snuffy Smith to play a gig. How other people feel are their business.

Didn't take it any other way.

One thing I meant to say, too, is that in recent discussions with some other musicians, we began talking about how America is a melting pot, and I began to realize that the down-side of being a melting pot is that no one can easily retain their ethnic identity. So, we have ended up with a nation (U.S.) of people who don't know who they are, essentially. Which goes back to Jerry Read Smith's comment. People are looking for their identity. That's why they do the genealogy and visit the Emerald Isle, go to Scottish Highland Games and participate in Irish music competitions and such in the States - they are trying to feel connected to something personally. I know that I, personally, have been affected greatly by finding out my family history and connections to Co. Antrim and Scotland. So, I think that when they go to see people who wear clothes that make them think "This person knows who they are", they like it. Of course, when one knows one's heritage, it isn't as important to have the things that remind one that one is part of something bigger.

deleuran said:

And now that you mention the line dancers, I come to think of a gig we played last august. It was a big thing, where a lot of different kinds of dancers and different kinds of folk- and other music were gathered for a weekend.
We were hired to play for traditional square dance with an american caller, and a couple of hundred dancers from all over Denmark. Everybody were clothed casually in everyday clothes, but the line dancers! Holy S...! Stetson hats, revolver belts, sixshooters, boots, and the ladies also with cowgirl outfits, frayed edged skirts etc. I must admit I couldn't help smiling to say the least. ;D

Ah, yes, the square dancers! My mother, father and myself were in a Western Square Dance club in SE Florida when I was about 13 or 14, somewhere in there (yes, a few years ago). We had, interestingly enough, a caller who was originally from Birmingham, UK. He called with what we would call a Cockney accent. We were doing Hahf Squehah Throughs, etc. And we all had western outfits, sans pistols and hats, which we wore to the dances. And when we went to the Howard Johnson restaurant afterwards, we did draw some attention to ourselves. Maybe that's why I don't mind wearing a kilt now. ;-) There's no tellin' what an American will do!

[Ptarmigan]

From what I've seen, costumes seem to be more a thing for Bluegrass & Country bands than Old Time groups.



Cheers
Dick

P.S. Rick before I forget, here's a photo of the famous Scottish Lamont Harp, in Chambers St. Museum, Edinburgh ..... you Lamont you! ;D

[tobias]

I am kind of divided on the subject. Costumes can be right on the line between a gimmick and an image.
I like Leroy Troys bumpy hat and overalls and the western wear of the Wilders but I dont think I could pull any of that off. But I must admit that I like to wear something that "fits" the music in a way. It can be quite subtle. Something that seems like a contradiction to the music is quite cool too. The cover of Old Crow Medicine Show's first CD has their banjoplayer wearing a Guns n' Roses T-shirt. I like that statement. "I might play the banjo...but I can still kick a** Rock and Roll style!"
But mainly I am in favor of looking pretty casual, but still with some touches that differentiates between the band and the audience (except for the different seating-arrangements :-) ). It can be quite hard once in a while though. I remember a gig we had once. Two people in the audience were dressed up in american civil war costumes. One from each side...We wondered if they had been out doing a two man reenactment of The Battle of Gettysburg...That would have been some sight :-D

/Tobias

[Ptarmigan]

Ha Ha Tobias, you should have asked those two guys to get up on stage & reenact The Battle of Gettysburg!

I'm sure everyone has a slightly different slant on whether or not to wear a costume, but I'd be happy enough if each member of a group was making a little gesture towards it, as long as they were each doing their own thing. I could never be persuaded to have everyone in the band wear exactly the same outfits. For me that just looks plain silly.
But of course we're all entitled to choose.

Cheers
Dick

[john]

If people have paid money to hear a band it is fine to dress up right for the show tonight. Because
people only not hear the band the see the band as well.
If wearing a hat, special shirt, cloggers, long hair, crew cut, beard no bear, no hair and slippers and so on , makes you feel,, fine so what!
Most of the bands I have seen have had band uniforms. Sometimes they did not know it.
Dressing up right shows a respect for the audience. And respect for you self.
But back stage and after the show, well, I will wear what I want. Mostly faded jeans, boots and an old T-shirt and a cap or an old cowboy hat. Have to. Have the same syndrome as Dick!!
And again ..I dont give a toss for clothing..the band and the audience can be naked.. I dont care.
I care for the music. Clothing does not make the music, the woman and the man.
It is just show time!!!
cheers,
John

[deleuran]

I feel like (again) referring to my first band experience in 1964 when I was 13 years old.
The Beatles first single arrived in Denmark about this time, and the Rolling Stones too.
I had got myself an acoustic guitar a year or so before, and then I had a fight with my parents to get an electric guitar. They strongly opposed. Both my parents were artists, and a bit bohemian in their styles and tastes. They didn't like this electric stuff. And then shortly after I had pestered them to buy me an electric guitar, I became member of a band playing mostly Beatles, Stones and Carl Perkins stuff. The Beatles had uniforms on and the same hairdo. The hair grew by itself and cost nothing ( the parents didn't like it tough) and every band at the time performed in uniforms. So we had to have that too. The Beatles boots with high heels, leather caps, jackets etc. The other guys got the suit and boots, but my parents refused to use money on those awful (in their opinion) clothes, so I was forced to look different than the rest of the band in their uniforms, and I was the front singer.
And somehow it has stayed with me, the individualistic aspect of it. Don't force me to do anything just because everybody else does it. Don't put me in a suit and tie. I don't know if I have a style. If I have any, I more or less look like a bum ;D

A funny thing is, the Beatles took their name from The Beats or the Beat Generation, which was highly individualistic. It was so individualistic, that most of the beats eventually all looked alike. Just like their offspring the hippies ;D
But I must say, that Beatles dropped the uniform when they began smoking hashish and taking LSD ;D Let the freak flag (the hair) fly, let the hair grow and drop the tie!!! ;D ;D ;D

[Ptarmigan]

Speaking of costumes, if you'd like to see a bunch of grown men playing Banjos in costume {that's the men in costume, not the Banjos! } ~ I've just posted links to 13 video clips of dudes in pre Civil War costumes playing period style Banjos:

Early Banjo Gathering 2007

I've also posted a few related links on the subject over here:

The Banjo Clubhouse

Personally, I find the costumes really suit the occasion & I wouldn't have any problem dressing up, were I ever to attend such an event.

Cheers
Dick

[kristianrrb]

Hiya!

This is an interesting subject. When I go and listen to bands, I find it quite a turn off if they are not dressed up for the gig. I find it quite essential, actually. It expresses a "We are here to perform for you, and we take it seriously"-attitude. Now, I dont want people to wear stetson hats and plastic guns, Sheriff's badges or whatever. You should never wear stuff that tries to project yourself as something you are not (leave that to Rednex), but you have to show the audience that you have put in an effort. And you should be comfortable with what you wear.

Except for the bootleg youtube of Rockridge in USA 2006 (too darn hot to wear our typical suits!) www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOUMAFjt3xg, we always wear a suit on stage - tie and/or vest is something we decide on together before leaving for a gig. Now, I might remove my jacket during a gig, but by then the audience already knows we took the effort to dress up for them!

regards,
Kristian

[Ptarmigan]

Aye Kristian, that's not a bad code for a performer:

.... you have to show the audience that you have put in an effort. And you should be comfortable with what you wear.

Thanks for the link too, which I have added to our YouTube list.

Cheers
Dick

[Susi]

I think I agree with what Kristian said. I like it when bands actually make an effort to look nice on stage because it shows some sort of seriousness with what they're doing. I would probably play on stage wearing a western jacket and boots, not because it's to do with American music but because I like my western jacket and boots. Everyone should wear on stage what they would wear to a party that they dress up for, and what they normally would wear. I have loads of different clothing styles that I love, and I guess sometimes people will think I dress up in costume, because sometimes I like to wear real western/cowgirl stuff (but serious things, that normal western folks of today would wear), sometimes medieval-like, sometimes bohemian, sometimes "career wear" as it's called in Irish shops. I don't wear any of it as a costume (only my Orsa folk costume, I suppose), but because I like it, it depends on what mood I'm in, and where I'm going (like, for a job interview I'd choose career wear and not bohemian...).

I think "costumes" can be cool but also very jerky, they should be worn very carefully, there's always the risk of making a fool out of yourself!!

[deleuran]

It looks like it's a matter of taste. Take a look at Foghorn Stringband and Riley Baugus and Tim Eriksen. I like their style of lack of same. I would have been disturbed if they were in suit and tie, or overalls, corn pibe and strawhat, stetsonhat or whatever.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiPu8cr5syE&feature=related
There is no need, and I don't really feel that they don't pay me respect. I have been to a gig with an american bluegrass band. No cowboy hats. Just black suits, white shirts and black ties. They looked like they were a bunch of undertakers or accountants who had come to the wrong place, and accidentally been put instruments in their hands. They played OK. But somehow it disturbed me, because I thought they looked like my uncle from the country who allways wore his work clothes, and looked totally wrong and out of place, when he put on his "fine" clothes on rare occations, such as funerals, baptism or weddings.
A little more Foghorn in their everyday clothes. I love them for it, and I love their music.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeN8mCT0mwA&feature=related

[deleuran]

And notice, they SIT DOWN and perform. My favorite position
And they are in close contact with each other when they play. It's the old time way.
They sit knee to knee around a microphone and not standing in line like bluegrass- or rock bands for that matter.

[Ptarmigan]

Aye Jesper, that business of sitting down to play reminds me that I have always played my Hammered Dulcimer sitting down, simply because I feel comfortable sitting down when I play. However, checking out YouTubes & watching other H-D players, I've noticed that most actually stand up, which I find very odd. I would feel very uncomfortable & out of place if I were standing up at a session, when everyone else was sitting down.

Sitting feels so much more natural, comfortable & relaxed, so I don't know where or when that Old Time tradition of sitting down to play, started, but it just makes perfect sense to me.

As for the casual dress of the likes of the Foghorn, I feel very comfortable with them dressing like they do & don't feel like they are disrespecting me or their audience in any way.

I think I'm comfortable with their dress for a couple of good reasons.
1 ~ I've spent the past 35 years playing in informal pub sessions, they have really been my musical reason for living, so I've played in at least one every week during that time, & sometimes as many as 6 each week for a while, so for me casual dress & good music go hand in hand. I can understand how folks who aren't used to getting their live music from informal session type gatherings, but rather public performances, & so would be so used to seeing their musicians dressed up, might feel cheated when bands like Foghorn ramble on stage in various jeans & shirts. However, for me, it's like they're allowing me to eavesdrop on their private world of music & they're letting me see their music in almost a natural way, not tarted up in some sort of showbiz nonsense. I guess what I'm saying is, I like my music as real & natural as I can get it, so the Foghorn attire is just fine with me. When they dress like that, I can believe that they are putting 100% of their attention into the music & that's fine by me, I don't want them wasting their effort & skills on how they look, it's not important to me. If I want to see performing seals I'll go to a Circus or a Cabaret show.

2 ~ I very rarely go to concerts any more, because I feel kind of cheated when musicians so obviously put on a show, cause I just want to hear their music in as natural a way as I can get it. So, if their clothes don't gel, I wonder what else are they doing to their music just for effect! I think that's one reason why I just love Old Time & don't feel any affection for Bluegrass. Old Time comes over most of the time as so very natural, guys just sharing a good tune together & it seems to me they are treating the tune itself as the number one, most important factor. When I see Bluegrass bands play, they are so obviously playing to the crowd, showing off if you like, & I don't like show offs! I don't care who can show off the most fantastic riffs, or the greatest variety in ways of playing a tune, I'm sorry but as a musician myself, those factors just don't interest me at all.

Of course I just loved the Chocolate drops cause they were casually dressed & their whole time on stage was for me like they were sitting round their kitchen table chewing the fat, joking with each other & sharing tunes & songs.

Incidentally, my reactions against false musical entities is also why my favourite recordings are my tapes of Irish music, the ones I recorded in countless sessions over the years, not those glossy studio fabrications.

Cheers
Dick

P.S. Thanks for that first link, I've added it to our collection.

[Ptarmigan]

Incidentally, I hope you understand that I am only expressing here, how I like to see & hear my Traditional Music being played.

Traditional Music is of course a completely different art form from Classical Orchestras, Jazz & R&R & I believe Bluegrass too. So with those other forms of music I understand that a completely different set of dress codes, if you like, are the norm & I wouldn't have it any other way.

So when I, like everyone else, go to see Jazz, R&R or Classical music, I/we expect the musicians to dress a certain way & to produce their music in a certain established way. So of course Jazz is all about brilliant musicians showing off their amazing skills & demonstrating their total mastery of their instrument & the tunes, & I just love going to those gigs.

So Old Time & Bluegrass gigs might both start with four musicians on a stage, but after that you just can't compare the two art forms ~ they are worlds apart. The musicians may well both start off with the same tune, but it's what they do with that tune & how they present it which demonstrates to me that they are like chalk & cheese .... I could live on one, but I would never eat the other! ;D

So dress may seem to be a small, unimportant factor for some folks, but I think it really is something that anyone who plays in front of a paying audience, should take very seriously.

For example, can you just picture the Berlin Philarmonic turning out in Cowboy Hat, Boot, frilly shirts etc etc or even just jeans & a checked shirt? ;D

Cheers
Dick

[kristianrrb]

I agree with otfiddler about the 'dress as if you are going to a party' - Actually, in Rockridge we tend to wear stuff like that when we go to parties now that I think about it. To me it is about just dressing up a bit. Nothing wrong with feeling good and comfortable with how you look on stage.

I saw Foghorn Stringband when they were in Sweden during easter 2007, and I really enjoyed it. They have an aura of authenticity about them that allows them to sit down on stage and wear whatever clothes they want. Or, more correctly, I think I quickly surrendered to them, because they are so darn good, so I didn't care!

But I would still like to make a distinction between 'playing' and 'performing'. Foghorn can bridge the gap, and so can other good bands. When I first started playing I struggled with standing up, and preferred to sit, which i still do at jams etc. i.e. in informal situations. But performing equals standing up for me. So I simply practiced it.

Dick, regarding bluegrass and oldtime, I think I am going to start another thread on that subject (once I get my head around my thoughts that is), simply because I think the separation of the two styles is wrong and the main reason why the oldtime community is struggling with adopting new musicians.

regards,
Kristian